The 5 points of Calvinism

[ybrown]

krazeeboi said:

"Intellectual" doesn't mean that one has to have a PhD to understand the Word. It simply means that we must press beyond intellectual laziness to understand the Bible more in depth. Although you believe the concept of limited atonement to be unbiblical, there is nothing inherently difficult about it as far as mental capacity goes. People's problem with this doctrine isn't intellectual in nature, it's emotional.

Emotional? How so? Because some can’t accept that God's thought are not our thoughts and therfore totally unpredictable? And also because He isn’t Love like His word says He is? That doctrine is rejected because it isn’t biblical. You can’t point to ONE scripture that unequivocally upholds it.

You state, "It seems you believe the more the Word is twisted to mean something else, the greater the intellectual approach."

If that were the case, I'd be a Jehovah's Witness. This is clearly false.

But this doctrine fits the bill because it requires a lot of adding to the Bible in order to come up with its conclusion.

My response only concerned your apparent disregard for the role of logic in studying the Word of God. Why make that so complicated? You use it everytime you study the Bible, and in the formulation of every doctrinal position you have come to hold, regardless of how you attempt to discredit its importance.

It takes a total disregard for logic in order to uphold limited atonement because you can't reconcile it with hundreds of scriptures that prove it false

By the way, my biggest problem with the doctrine of unlimited atonement is that it effectively makes Jesus' atoning sacrifice more of a failure than a success (since ultimately, salvation doesn't depend on the one who runs or wills, but on God who has mercy--that's Bible) and it effectively robs God of His sovereignty in the greatest universal matter.

Salvation does depend on us! God’s mercy was extended when He made ALL the arrangements thousands of years ago when He sent Jesus. Everyone who has born since only need to tell Him, “YES!” and appropriate his faith to God's mercy.

What verse says that God is still to this day saying yes and no to His creation in regards to salvation? Book, chapter and verse, please. That's how Santa was explained when I was a child, with his good list and naughty list.

How does a sin-loving man who says no to Christ rob God of His sovereignty? God is still God even if every one of us decides to not accept Christ. That has absolutely nothing to do with the Great “I Am” being the Great “I Am.” We don't affect who God is, He affects who we are.

Salvation is of the Lord, and it is God's prerogative as to who He will save and who He will not. He reserves that right unto Himself and I have no right to question His justice in this regard. I can only glorify Him eternally because my salvation doesn't have anything to do with where I was born, who I was born to, my intellectual capacity, or my emotional well-being, although God may have used these things to draw me unto Himself. I love Him because He first loved me, and I chose Him because He first chose me.

I address this with my questions below, but why should someone who isn’t saved, according to your doctrine, love God, as the bible tells us to?

Election in the New Testament is NOT to salvation, but to the results of salvation which means forgiveness of sins, eternal life, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, becoming a child of God, and vital....living a godly and biblical life.

In Ephesians 1, election is God's choosing His plan of salvation, not the choosing of who would be saved. In other words its about HOW we're saved not WHO is saved.

I have close to one hundred scriptural questions, but I've only asked a few of them here (anyone who wishes to answer, please do):

• If God limits the atonement to the elect, and those that are selected are not selected by anything within themselves, for God is no respecter of persons, then what happens to babies that die? Well, based upon their theory, they are either elect of they are not. God cannot base His election on their infancy since that would make Him a respecter of persons. So, the God of "love" chooses to torment little babies for eternity in a fiery hell! If God is the "cause" of "everything" then is He not the "cause" of sin? Doesn't He have to "will' sin for it to exist? Wouldn't that make God evil?
  
  
• Who is the Bible for?
  
  
• If God gave mankind His Word in order to know Him, name a place where He condemned any man straight to Hell.
  
  
• Where does scripture's tutoring power come in under your plan? God presented the Law before He presented the gospel -- for a reason. "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith," (Gal. 3:24).
  
  
• Why did Paul state that the Jews who reject Christ will be included in salvation?
  
  
• How is it any way "just" that one be d**ned before the foundation of the world, before the stain of "Original Sin" would come upon him, and before an individual even exists?
  
  
• How can we possibly "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12) if we are predestined to salvation or d**nation from before the foundation of the world through no act of our own, through no fault of our own, and are thus powerless to effect that outcome.
  
  
• Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ "is the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey Him." Isn't obeying Him something that "man does" that affects his salvation? You take the position that nothing we can do will effect our salvation. That has all been decided long before we came into being. So why then can our obedience, or lack of it, affect our salvation and why is this ability even articulated, when in your view, it doesn’t exist? Where does the author of Hebrews restricted this statement to the "elect"?
  
  
• Please explain the statements of 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Tim 2:4 that say that the Father desires all to come unto Him.
  
  
• Where in the Bible does it show that God's grace is limited, because for God to withhold his grace and love would act against His own nature.
  
  
• What kind of love sends someone to an eternal hell of torment and separation from God without the offer of forgiveness? Is there another kind of love that does that? What kind of love withholds the offer of Grace to a hell bound sinner who has no other hope?
  
  
• Matthew 25:41 says that God prepared hell for the Devil and His angels....not man. If God's plan, which He says was made before the foundations of the earth, was to send most of mankind to hell...why did He say it was prepared for the Devil and his angels?
  
  
• How can you be absolutely sure that YOU are one of the elect? Faith? Well that can’t be because the basic of your salvation, according to this thought, is that you were elected by God to be saved. This is a serious doctrinal error. How can you say you were saved by faith, as God's word teaches, when you believe that God through "irresistible grace" saved you. That is not what Ephesian 2:1-10 says. Salvation is by faith and over 60 times in the New Testament God says that we are to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.
  
  
• Over sixty times in the New Testament God says, faith, belief and trust in God is said to be the basis of receiving God's forgiveness and grace. Belief is an act of one's will. Why would God tell us to believe, when we really do not have to exercise our wills and believe, while He forces the elect to believe? Belief, trust and faith are all acts of a man's will. If God says that we are to believe. . . then surely He must have provided the means by which we could obey Him.
  
  
• John 3:19 states the reason men reject Christ....they love their sin. Is the bible wrong then because that goes totally against the Calvinist view that men reject Christ because they were predestined to Hell while still in their mother’s womb.
  
  
• God, the Holy Spirit, draws all men to Christ. Romans 1:18-22 says no one is without excuse because God reveals Himself to all men by natural revelation. Both in natural and special revelation God reveals Himself to all men. God says He actively seeks all men. God reveals Himself and men are drawn by the Holy Spirit to believe. Verses 22-25 explains the basis of why some men are condemned. Please explain this.
  
  
• Romans 1:18-25 states the truth that no man has an reason to blame God or excuse for his condemnation. God states He is exonerated because He actively reveals Himself to all men. A man who goes to hell is there because he willingly and with knowledge rejected God. What would be the reason to reveal Himself to all men, knowing that some He chose could not respond?
  
  
• If God forces a man to believe what glory would that be to Him? The Bible is a love letter, God is love, and He is an emotional being and we being made in God's image are emotional being also. How can our love for God mean anything it God forces it on us?
  
  
• Those that believe are saved and those that do reject the conviction given them by the Holy Spirit are condemned already, because they have not believed(John 3:18). John 3:36 reiterates saying it plain enough.... "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." Please explain.
  
  
• What is the point of God creating man and giving him life. Why let that man sin in the first place and then curse him for disobeying? Think....why test man in the Garden of Eden by giving him a choice if God was going to force man to make the wrong choice. Did God man Adam and Eve disobey Him? What brought about the curse?
  
  
• God's plan is clearly stated that He gave His living creation man a will. This also applies to the angels. Angels and Satan too were created with wills. Satan exercised his will and rebelled against God and many angels followed in his rebellion. Does God not even give us the same free will as He gave to Satan?
  
  

Please explain these scriptures:

John 5:22-24 " For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent."

Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon allmen unto justification of life."

Ephesian 3:8-9 "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ."

1 Timothy 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

1 Timothy 4:10 "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men."

Mark 16:16 says, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be d**ned.”

In 1 John 5:10 God says, “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.”
________________________________________________

Please provide a passage that says God created some men for the Lake of Fire, withholding from them the Gospel and that they have no way to be saved.

In your trying to understand God and rationalize why He and His Son are not disastrous phonies, you try in vain to systematize Him. All the while, you make Him out to be a deranged, tyrannical, downright evil being who isn’t worthy of love, let alone worship. This view tarnishes His sweet name. That’s not the God we serve. That's just not Him. Let Him tell you Who He is, not some murderer of Bible-believing Christians!

T-U-L-I-P is NOT the gospel. The Gospel is The Good News, but from the Calvinist view, how can it be called that at all when billions of people never had a chance in Hell because they weren't on God's random "good list"?

I know God's ways are not our ways, but daming helf the people who ever lived or lwill live to Hell isn't quite what He's referring to.

The Five Points of Calvinism are a different gospel than what’s presented in Scripture. The penalty for making this error is enormous and has sent millions of souls to hell in eternal torment. Therefore, the Calvinist should not dismiss this warning lightly as his eternal destiny may be at stake.

[Nikkol]

So are you saying God created some men in order for them to go on the express train to Hell? Why even give them life in the first place? This life is our only opportunity to accept Christ and this is where WE determine where we’ll spend all of eternity. Free will means we’re free to make the choice.

Two names:
Judas and Esau


Aditionally, one major dent in your argument is that if we are saying that Jesus dies for ALL sins, than noone will go to hell.

Natural example:
If Sam stole a candy bar but Tom said that he stole it, Tom would have to pay the penalty and there would be no penalty to Sam, even though he was the one that actually stole it.

Therefore, if Jesus died for EVERYONE's sins, that would mean that we will all live with Jesus because the penalty was paid..... and this is probably where Carlton Pearson gets his "logic" insofar as he believes that "Everyone is saved, they just don't know it yet."

KRAZEE: Good points.... no errors thus far; strictly Bible ;D

[ybrown]

electladynb said:

So are you saying God created some men in order for them to go on the express train to Hell? Why even give them life in the first place?

This life is our only opportunity to accept Christ and this is where WE determine where we’ll spend all of eternity. Free will means we’re free to make the choice.

Two names:
Judas and Esau[/quote]

Judas and Esau were born just to die? Where does the bible say that? Do you have scriptural support?
Judas’ purpose was to portray Jesus so that Jesus could fulfill HIS purpose to die.

In terms of Esau, are you making reference to Romans 9:13 that says God hated Esau? If so, please take a look at several different commentaries on that particular scripture. The meaning of that verse is pretty much universal in that God is talking about how He prefers Jacob’s people over the Edomites (Esau’s). Doesn’t mention anything about Esau being born to die. How do you come up with that conclusion?

Was there someone else other than Jesus Christ who was born to die? Again, hopefully the scripture(s) you provide to support your statement may be able to shed some light on this.

Aditionally, one major dent in your argument is that if we are saying that Jesus dies for ALL sins, than noone will go to hell.

Jesus Christ came in the flesh so that “you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name” (John 20:30,31). This is another witness to God’s existence and also stands to condemn those men who choose to reject Christ as the Son of God. Because Christ came to pay the price of sin, and so that He could tell us who the father is (John 1:18), man has no excuse for rejecting him.
Nevertheless, he still does.

Men choose to go to hell because they reject Christ, not because God destined them to go there. God has paid the price, revealed Himself to all, and now men are “without excuse” (Rom. 1:20).

God allows people to be born to give them the opportunity to believe, but it is man’s responsibility to make that choice. What kind of God would He be if He did not give man the opportunity to place his faith in the Lord?

Natural example:
If Sam stole a candy bar but Tom said that he stole it, Tom would have to pay the penalty and there would be no penalty to Sam, even though he was the one that actually stole it.
Therefore, if Jesus died for EVERYONE's sins, that would mean that we will all live with Jesus because the penalty was paid..... and this is probably where Carlton Pearson gets his "logic" insofar as he believes that "Everyone is saved, they just don't know it yet."

This is basically the same question as above. Scripture certainly does NOT say or infer in any way that all men are saved, but it does teach that all men CAN be saved if they realize they are sinners in need of a Savior, ask for forgiveness of their sins and put their faith in what Christ accomplished at the Cross.

KRAZEE: Good points.... no errors thus far; strictly Bible ;D

Providing less than 4 scriptures to support an entire biblical doctrine is what you call strictly bible?

If you would, could you please provide scripture to unequivocally support limited atonement and answer just a few of my questions and explain the many scriptures that I brought up in my previous post(s).

If you have any scriptural questions, please ask and I’ll answer fully, just like, hopefully you’ll answer mine.

[Nikkol]

Judas and Esau were born just to die? Where does the bible say that? Do you have scriptural support?
Judas’ purpose was to portray Jesus so that Jesus could fulfill HIS purpose to die.

In terms of Esau, are you making reference to Romans 9:13 that says God hated Esau? If so, please take a look at several different commentaries on that particular scripture. The meaning of that verse is pretty much universal in that God is talking about how He prefers Jacob’s people over the Edomites (Esau’s). Doesn’t mention anything about Esau being born to die. How do you come up with that conclusion?

Was there someone else other than Jesus Christ who was born to die? Again, hopefully the scripture(s) you provide to support your statement may be able to shed some light on this.

Well, of course I do have scripture............ ;D

Joh 17:12 - Show Context
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

The son of perdition was Judas and he was "lost" for scripture to be fulfilled.

Heb 12:14-17
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail F44 of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place F45 of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

We know that repentance is important. Esau's job was mainly to fulfill the scripture that said:
Gen 25:23
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Now I will say that Judas was moreso born to be lost than Esau. However in both examples, you will see how both men's purpose was to "lose" rather than win..... I was just thinking, Pharoah could be seen in that same category as well.

Jesus Christ came in the flesh so that “you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name” (John 20:30,31). This is another witness to God’s existence and also stands to condemn those men who choose to reject Christ as the Son of God. Because Christ came to pay the price of sin, and so that He could tell us who the father is (John 1:18), man has no excuse for rejecting him.
Nevertheless, he still does.
Men choose to go to hell because they reject Christ, not because God destined them to go there. God has paid the price, revealed Himself to all, and now men are “without excuse” (Rom. 1:20).

God allows people to be born to give them the opportunity to believe, but it is man’s responsibility to make that choice. What kind of God would He be if He did not give man the opportunity to place his faith in the Lord?

Salvation is of the Lord. It has nothing to do with us at all. In order for us to "choose" Christ, it has to be because he has placed that within us. We don't just wake up one day and say "You know what, I'm going to follow Jesus." It is the spirit that draws..... and if the spirit doesn't draw, there's nothing that we can do. Additionally, we can't even blame God for we don't deserve it anyways. Also, we know that one person plants, another waters..... but it is only God that can give the increase and being that he is God, he's going to do what He wants.

What kind of God would he be? God. Yes God is loving and merciful... however he is also a judger. God can do what God wants and we can't blame Him. Even Israel thought that he wasn't "being fair"... but how DARE anyone say that God isn't fair. He's very fair. Just because it doesn't line up with our "feelings" doesn't make him any more or less fair.

Could you give some scriptures that state that God gives everyone the opportunity to believe?

This is basically the same question as above. Scripture certainly does NOT say or infer in any way that all men are saved, but it does teach that all men CAN be saved if they realize they are sinners in need of a Savior, ask for forgiveness of their sins and put their faith in what Christ accomplished at the Cross.

How does one "realize that they are sinners" it's God revealing that to them.... nothing of ourselves. We know that godly sorrow worketh repentance.... and if a person doesn't have godly sorrow, they will not repent. It's more than just "asking for forgiveness" but you (general) need to be able to turn away from sin and that will only happen if God puts it in you to do it.

Also, we know that not ALL men will be saved because there will be a great falling away as well as the fact that the way to God is narrow but many will be on the broad path.

It's a "God thing"; not a "man thing"

I have no problem with answering your questions. At the same time, know that if we believe that there is atonement for EVERYONE, than EVERYONE is saved. If Chrsti has died for EVERYONE's sins, than we can't die because that price has already been paid. This is why one can say that Christ has died for the sins of those that are his. We know that isn't everyone because in scriptures we also see how the sheep were separated from the goats........

A lot has to do with reading scripture in context and putting ALL scripture that deals with a subject together. I think that that is what KRAZEE has done. He has been able to use your scriptures as well as others to prove the same point. It seems as though you are reading certain scriptures to prove your point but it can really mess people up in thinking that the price has already been paid...... remember that same argument is why Carlton Pearson now preaches the "doctrine of inclusion"

[ybrown]

electladynb said:

Well, of course I do have scripture............ ;D

Joh 17:12 - Show Context
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

The son of perdition was Judas and he was "lost" for scripture to be fulfilled.

Heb 12:14-17
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail F44 of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place F45 of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

We know that repentance is important. Esau's job was mainly to fulfill the scripture that said:
Gen 25:23
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Now I will say that Judas was moreso born to be lost than Esau. However in both examples, you will see how both men's purpose was to "lose" rather than win..... I was just thinking, Pharoah could be seen in that same category as well.

Judas is called a son of perdition because he had the character of a destroyer. He was a traitor and a murderer. And this shows that he who knew the heart regarded his character as that of a wicked man--one whose appropriate name was that of a son of perdition. Judas was here to fulfill his role of traitor in order to bring about God's plan of salvation. Nowhere does this scripture even elude to Judas being born to die. He sinned and we can surmise he went to Hell. Lots of men in the bible were evil.

The doctrine of unconditional predestination to eternal life and eternal death cannot be supported by the example of God's dealings with Esau and Jacob, or with the Edomites and Israelites. After long reprobation the Edomites were incorporated among the Jews, and have ever since been undistinguishable members in the Jewish Church. The Jews, on the contrary, the elect of God, have been cut off and reprobated, and continue so to this day.

I guess we're all born to die, but Jesus was the only man who's death was just as equal in significance as His birth. He was sent to die. Jesus was the only one!

Salvation is of the Lord. It has nothing to do with us at all.

So are you saying no man has ever told God "no" in terms of salvation? Not one? Have you never heard of anyone turning away from God? Do we not have free will? Did Adam and Eve have free will in the Garden? Did God create them with that "something" to cause them to sin?

In order for us to "choose" Christ, it has to be because he has placed that within us. We don't just wake up one day and say "You know what, I'm going to follow Jesus." It is the spirit that draws..... and if the spirit doesn't draw, there's nothing that we can do. Additionally, we can't even blame God for we don't deserve it anyways. Also, we know that one person plants, another waters..... but it is only God that can give the increase and being that he is God, he's going to do what He wants.

Yes, the spirit draws and yet we have free will to make the decision. In John 16:8, Jesus said, "He will reprove (that is convince or convict) the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." "He will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13), The Holy Spirit is a teacher, not an enforcer.

What kind of God would he be? God. Yes God is loving and merciful... however he is also a judger. God can do what God wants and we can't blame Him. Even Israel thought that he wasn't "being fair"... but how DARE anyone say that God isn't fair. He's very fair. Just because it doesn't line up with our "feelings" doesn't make him any more or less fair.

God is the ultimate judge of everyone. In your view, what will He judge? Our actions, our choices? Why, if He programmed whom He wanted to be saved already? Is He going to judge those that denied Christ based on the unbleief that He created them with?

Whom do you preach the Gospel to? Not everyone?

Could you give some scriptures that state that God gives everyone the opportunity to believe?

I have lots, but here's a few. They're very clear and straightforward:

• 1 Timothy 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
  
  
• 1 Timothy 4:10 "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, specially of those that believe."
  
  
• Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men."
  
  
• Mark 16:16 says, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be d**ned.”
  
  
• Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life."
  
  
• Romans 5:19 “For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.”
  
  
• John 12:27-32 “Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. There came therefore a voice out of heaven, [saying], I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29 The multitude therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it had thundered: others said, An angel hath spoken to him. 30 Jesus answered and said, This voice hath not come for my sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto myself.”
  
  
• 1 Timothy 1-4 “I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for ALL men; 2 for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 who would have ALL men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.”
  
  
• Ephesian 3:8-9 "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make ALL men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ."
  
  
• Hebrews 2:2, 3 “how shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation? which having at the first been spoken through the Lord, was confirmed unto us by them that heard; 4 God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to his own will.”
  
  
• 1 John 2:1-2 “My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.”
  
  
• Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL men every where to repent."
  
  
• Titus 2:11 “ For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to ALL men,”
  
  
• Mark 16:15, 16 “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the WHOLE CREATION. 16 HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.”
  
  
• John 10:9 “I am the door; by me if ANY MAN enter in, HE SHALL BE SAVED, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.”
  
  
• Acts 2:21 “And it shall be, that WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
  
  

How does one "realize that they are sinners" it's God revealing that to them.... nothing of ourselves. We know that godly sorrow worketh repentance.... and if a person doesn't have godly sorrow, they will not repent. It's more than just "asking for forgiveness" but you (general) need to be able to turn away from sin and that will only happen if God puts it in you to do it.

So are you saying that not everyone that says the sinners prayer and means it will be saved? Are you also saying the sinner's prayer is only for a select few? Below is a sinner's prayer. What would you add to it or take away from it?

Dear God in heaven, I come to you in the name of Jesus. I acknowledge to You that I am a sinner, and I am sorry for my sins and the life that I have lived; I need your forgiveness.

I believe that your only begotten Son Jesus Christ shed His precious blood on the cross at Calvary and died for my sins, and I am now willing to turn from my sin.

You said in Your Holy Word, Romans 10:9 that if we confess the Lord our God and believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, we shall be saved.

Right now I confess Jesus as the Lord of my soul. With my heart, I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. This very moment I accept Jesus Christ as my own personal Savior and according to His Word, right now I am saved.

Thank you Jesus for your unlimited grace which has saved me from my sins. I thank you Jesus that your grace never leads to license, but rather it always leads to repentance. Therefore Lord Jesus transform my life so that I may bring glory and honor to you alone and not to myself.

Thank you Jesus for dying for me and giving me eternal life.

Amen.

Also, we know that not ALL men will be saved because there will be a great falling away as well as the fact that the way to God is narrow but many will be on the broad path.

It's a "God thing"; not a "man thing"

I have no problem with answering your questions. At the same time, know that if we believe that there is atonement for EVERYONE, than EVERYONE is saved. If Chrsti has died for EVERYONE's sins, than we can't die because that price has already been paid. This is why one can say that Christ has died for the sins of those that are his. We know that isn't everyone because in scriptures we also see how the sheep were separated from the goats........

That's right, every man WILL NOT be saved. Scripture tells us that. No, believing there is atonement for the sins of all man does not equate to beleiving all men will be saved. Scripture does not say that! Where do you see that?

You said: "If Chrsti has died for EVERYONE's sins, than we can't die because that price has already been paid."

Because we now have the spirit of Christ, our BORN AGAIN SPRITIS WILL NEVER DIE.

Scripture tells us every man will not be saved! We are in agreement on that, but that does not negate the fact that Christ died for them.

Do you think God loves Muslims, Jews, Buddhist, New Agers and want them to be saved?

[lanl ns]

I am just catching up on this topic, however before I respond I just want to ask 2 simple questions:

YBrown are you saying that ALL men are Saved whether they believe or not?

Nikkol / KB are you all saying that God has predestined those whom will go to hell and those whom will be saved?

[ybrown]

lanl said:

I am just catching up on this topic, however before I respond I just want to ask 2 simple questions:

YBrown are you saying that ALL men are Saved whether they believe or not?

Nope.

[lanl ns]

Thanks YB for answering that, I must agree with you if that is the case.

Please help my understanding, because I don't see where the others are getting the notion that Jesus came only to save a select few..................

What about the scripture that John 3:16
That God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.


Also, Nikkol in regards to Esau and Judas, those individuals could not have received atonement for their sins through Jesus because he had yet to die, and it is the belief of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus that brings Salvation.

I'll be back..................

[Nikkol]

lanl said:

Also, Nikkol in regards to Esau and Judas, those individuals could not have received atonement for their sins through Jesus because he had yet to die, and it is the belief of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus that brings Salvation.

I'll be back..................

So are you saying that noone before Christ died is saved and so therefore are all in hell?

[And Such Were Some Of You]

no, because we know what happened once Christ died, right?

[Nikkol]

andsuchweresomeofu said:

no, because we know what happened once Christ died, right?

si, senora.

[keita]

...I am finding a few general logical errors in your arguments.

Saint, that’s your first mistake. You’re relying on logic and not on the Word of God, which is what all things pertaining to the Most High should be based upon. The search for logic will ALWAYS prove fruitless.

As I was reading this exchange, I was thinking that despite the reality that in its most common (mis)usage "theology" has in many ways gotten a really bad name, believers are in fact called to become and be a THEOlogical people.

I found this statement:

We need to interpret the Word correctly, through the aid of the Holy Spirit which illuminates our minds, and this necessitates the use of logic.

to be a really excellent definition of that. Although when I quote it , I will be changing that "which" to "who".

[lanl ns]

electladynb said:

lanl said:

Also, Nikkol in regards to Esau and Judas, those individuals could not have received atonement for their sins through Jesus because he had yet to die, and it is the belief of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus that brings Salvation.

I'll be back..................

So are you saying that noone before Christ died is saved and so therefore are all in hell?

No I am not saying that those who were Waiting on the promise were not saved..............they were saved waiting on the Promise while we are Saved because the promise has come..........

The difference is that those in the OT / NT were also apart of the scripture being fulfilled, we now have the fulfillment of the scripture and Christ left us equipped to overcome the trials and tribulations that we are facing today.

The problem is we don't activate our faith enough to overcome these situations.

[krazeeboi]

Romans 9

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

[krazeeboi]

1 Timothy 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

Now this is a good one. The best explanation I've ever read concerning this scripture is in this article, "Are There Two Wills in God? Divine Election and God's Desire for All to be Saved. Lengthy read, but it answers the question.

And Sis. Keita, thanks for pointing out that I should've said "Who" instead of "which." I try to be really conscious of that.