The 5 points of Calvinism

[endure4him]

Hi Saints

Pray this reply finds everyone in good health, happy, glee and full of God's love!

Now, ya'll know me I'm just country and from Tx. and I ain't got no shame-if I don't know, I just don't know (help me )however, I do have a question.

Whatever happened to just being saved, loving God for who he is, and striving to do the book? Is it not enough to just follow the ten commandments? When did we get into all this Universalism, Calvinism and Arminianism? Which I'm not ashamed to mention (not really clear on what they all mean)

What does all of this really have to do with being saved and loving God, treating your neighbor, family, friends, strangers, etc. as God would treat them. Fasting, Praying, and seeking God for his will in our lives...simplistic but, yet honoring, magnifying and glorifying God's name.

Help a sister out...am I missing something or is this another "new" thang?

[Jasmine]

I hope this helps....


Arminianism
Free-Will or Human Ability

Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner posses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.

Calvinism
Total Inability or Total Depravity

Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.


Read more on both www.the-highway.com/compare.html


Universalism

Universalism is the teaching that all people will be saved. Some say that it is through the atonement of Jesus that all will ultimately be reconciled to God. Others just say that all will go to heaven sooner or later, whether or not they have trusted in or rejected Jesus as savior during their lifetime. This universal redemption will be realized in the future where God will bring all people to repentance. This repentance can happen while a person lives or after he has died and lived again in the millennium (as some "Christian universalists" claim) or some future state. Additionally, a few universalists even maintain that Satan and all demons will likewise be reconciled to God.

[krazeeboi]

ybrown said:

Matt. 25:41 states that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, this in no way means that they will be the exclusive residents of hell. You get that?

"Everyone will be saved" is not the only conceivable conclusion. If God had predestined over half of His creation to go to hell, wouldn't He had included them in the list along with the devil and his angels? As scripture states it is God's desire that every man accept Christ as the atoning sacrifice for their sins. That is His heart. Since this scripture deals with the original intent of hell, my purpose of putting up that scripture, along with the other 20 or so others, was to disprove your contention that God's intention and desire was to send millions there as their eternal destination even before they were born.

OK, but in the same way, I can say that heaven wasn't created for the saints, yet this is the "location" of the soul/spirit of the saint in the intermediate state. The final destination of the devil and his angels, along with "the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars" (Revelation 21:8), is the lake with burns with fire and brimstone. In the same way, the saints will rule and reign upon a recreated earth, and not in heaven, throughout all eternity.

Lastly, since you were not happy with the dividing of Romans 9:22 from one of my study bibles, I will post ten (I'll make sure they're short and sweet) breakdowns of this scripture from sources such as Schofield, Strong, Geneva Study Bible, John Gill's Exposition of the Bible, Matthew Henry Commentary of the Whole Bible, Wesley's Explanatory Notes, and others if possible (including something from the original Greek).

I don't even know what all of these commentaries say about Romans 9:22, but I'm willing to post them so that this scripture can be rightly divided.

I have my view and you have a totally different one, so fresh perspectives are needed to truly find out what the intent of the passage is. There's a whole doctrine riding on it so it's definitely important. If there's a commentary that you'd like to have included, please post it so that it's included with all the others. Is that okay with you?

Sounds good to me.

[lanl ns]

electladynb said:

Salvation is definitely a Lord / God thing and I agree it has nothing to do with us and Salvation is something that we definitely cannot do for ourselves.

However, what concerns me about this statement is the mere fact that we (general) can think that we are so special that God only gave this gift to a select few...... does that not breeds pride?

Pride? No. Remember that even in the story people were still coming at the 11th hour. They may not have "worked" as long but it doesn't negate the end. Can't (or at least I shouldn't) have pride because if it was not for the grace of God, there would be me as well.

Let me rephrase "pride" and say that sometimes people with this attitude walk around in "False Humility" meaning that you (general) act as though you are humble unto God but in essence you (general) are walking with your chest stuck out because you (general) believe that you are so so so so so Chosen by God.

[lanl ns]

I have a question to all the people who Believe that God has chosen those whom will be saved and those who will not be Saved:

If God has chosen everyone and has preordained everyone into their rightful positions, than why do you (those who subscribe to this doctrine) study the Bible, Preach the Gospel, attend church, do mission work, try to compel people to come to Christ?

If you are pre selected than what is the purpose of your works? Is it because you were chosen to work or that you have a heart to bring people to Jesus?

It seems to me that if you were pre selected than what's the purpose of doing anything, because you already know your guaranteed end!

BTW Endure, this is new to me too, don't feel bad........ Which is why I am asking so many questions.......

Not to long ago, we just believed

[jasmine nsi]

We still do just believe, which if we REALLY look at that, it is our problem today.(in a way)

the vast majority of Christians, tend to just believe ANYTHING that we are taught, fed, or etc. We must know that all scriptures are in uniform with each other. They all work together. You can't just take on scripture and draw a conclusion off of it.

Now I dont prescribe to any doctrine, except the one that licensed me. but I will say this. You are still called and commanded to do mission work (feed the hungry, shelter the unsheltered, heal the sick) You are still commanded to preach the gospel, as you really don't know who is pre-destined for hell, or will make the choice to choose God, so you still compel men to come. Those who will come will.

I simply choose to believe that, God saves who he wants to save, even though salvation is a gift for all to receive. I simply choose to believe that GOD sent his Son to die for ALL men, but all men will not be saved. I simply choose to believe that GOD chose me, not because of anything good that I have done, because there was no good in me. Had he not chosen me first, I wouldn't have chosen him.

Here is a question: We often say and sing. I love God because He first loved me.
Ever notice how this phrase really only applies to God. Do we ever say to our friends. I love my husband, because he first loved me?

[Nikkol]

jasmine said:

We still do just believe, which if we REALLY look at that, it is our problem today.(in a way)

the vast majority of Christians, tend to just believe ANYTHING that we are taught, fed, or etc. We must know that all scriptures are in uniform with each other. They all work together. You can't just take on scripture and draw a conclusion off of it.

Now I dont prescribe to any doctrine, except the one that licensed me. but I will say this. You are still called and commanded to do mission work (feed the hungry, shelter the unsheltered, heal the sick) You are still commanded to preach the gospel, as you really don't know who is pre-destined for hell, or will make the choice to choose God, so you still compel men to come. Those who will come will.

I simply choose to believe that, God saves who he wants to save, even though salvation is a gift for all to receive. I simply choose to believe that GOD sent his Son to die for ALL men, but all men will not be saved. I simply choose to believe that GOD chose me, not because of anything good that I have done, because there was no good in me. Had he not chosen me first, I wouldn't have chosen him.

Here is a question: We often say and sing. I love God because He first loved me.
Ever notice how this phrase really only applies to God. Do we ever say to our friends. I love my husband, because he first loved me?

Jasmine.... I agree.

The reason why we do what we do is because that is what we are told to do. We don't know who has been "chosen". Because of that, we are still told to go to the hedges and highways to compell them to come. We know that most people won't come to the truth by the fact of different parables (10 virgins) or even the fact that the way to destrucion is wide but the way to life is narrow.

Regarding "love God because he first loved us"... that is so true.



I don't think that a true believer can walk with their chest held out because you are chosen. Can you rejoice? Yes. But for a true believer, it is such a humbling thing since we know that we didn't have to be chosen. We know that pride goeth before destruction; a haughty spirit before a fall. So, if a person would become that way, destruction is close......

Endure: Just studying different things ;D

[lanl ns]

jasmine said:

or will make the choice to choose God, so you still compel men to come. Those who will come will.

I agree that it is up to the individual to make the choice to come................... God has to touch the heart but that does not mean that all will come.

I can offer you $1000.00 and the choice is your to accept it, but just because it is not accepted does not mean the offer is not available.

I simply choose to believe that, God saves who he wants to save, even though salvation is a gift for all to receive. I simply choose to believe that GOD sent his Son to die for ALL men, but all men will not be saved.

Agree with that

I simply choose to believe that GOD chose me, not because of anything good that I have done, because there was no good in me. Had he not chosen me first, I wouldn't have chosen him.

God chose you, me and everyone because in the Word it says:

God is not slack concerning his promise not willing that ANY MAN shall perish but that ALL should come to repentance........................ Is repenting not part of the plan of Salvation

[jasmine nsi]

lanl said:

jasmine said:

or will make the choice to choose God, so you still compel men to come. Those who will come will.

I agree that it is up to the individual to make the choice to come................... God has to touch the heart but that does not mean that all will come.

excatly what i have written

I can offer you $1000.00 and the choice is your to accept it, but just because it is not accepted does not mean the offer is not available.

I dont dispute that salvation is a free gift extend to all. Jesus did die for ALL men.

I simply choose to believe that, God saves who he wants to save, even though salvation is a gift for all to receive. I simply choose to believe that GOD sent his Son to die for ALL men, but all men will not be saved.

Agree with that

great.

I simply choose to believe that GOD chose me, not because of anything good that I have done, because there was no good in me. Had he not chosen me first, I wouldn't have chosen him.

God chose you, me and everyone because in the Word it says:

God is not slack concerning his promise not willing that ANY MAN shall perish but that ALL should come to repentance........................ Is repenting not part of the plan of Salvation

the word says that for many are called, but few are chosen. in reference to the scripture you've posted. It actually reads:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

It is not that the Lord is slack concerning the promise of His return, but that He is still exercising grace, not wishing any to perish, but that all should come to repentance. God is an ALL knowing GOD.He sees the beginning, middle and end all at once. God already knows that ALL will not come into repentance.

[lanl ns]

Jas, thanks for the scripture!

I guess my concern with this WHOLE issue is that it seems as if it is being said that Repentance, Forgiveness and Salvation IS NOT AVAILABLE to ALL.....

Whether people choose Salvation or not; still does not negate the fact that Salvation is yet available to all.....

[ybrown]

lanl said:

I guess my concern with this WHOLE issue is that it seems as if it is being said that Repentance, Forgiveness and Salvation IS NOT AVAILABLE to ALL.....

That's EXACTLY what Calvinism says and that's what some are saying.

Whether people choose Salvation or not; still does not negate the fact that Salvation is yet available to all.....

Exactly.

[krazeeboi]

lanl said:

electladynb said:

Pride? No. Remember that even in the story people were still coming at the 11th hour. They may not have "worked" as long but it doesn't negate the end. Can't (or at least I shouldn't) have pride because if it was not for the grace of God, there would be me as well.

Let me rephrase "pride" and say that sometimes people with this attitude walk around in "False Humility" meaning that you (general) act as though you are humble unto God but in essence you (general) are walking with your chest stuck out because you (general) believe that you are so so so so so Chosen by God.

I'm trying to understand the mentality of someone who knows she was destitute, on her way to hell, and is now saved solely and totally by the grace and mercy of God, and now walks around with her "chest stuck out"? That doesn't factor in to me, because you didn't EARN this salvation; it was freely given, due to no merit on your own. If anything, I'd expect to see the opposite: the one who believe he can contribute to his salvation in some way would be the one walking around in pride or "false humility" because he was smart enough, or born in the right place at the right time, or his family has always been __________ (fill in name of denomination here), or whatever, to believe the Gospel. The reason why I cannot walk around in either pride or false humility is because I DESERVE an eternity separated from God just like all sinners, but through no merit or action of my own, God chose me. It's a very sobering thought, and I can give no glory to the flesh in this, but only to the Lord.

[krazeeboi]

lanl said:

I agree that it is up to the individual to make the choice to come................... God has to touch the heart but that does not mean that all will come.

Question: So if God touched my heart, and He also touched my neighbor's heart, why did I believe and obey the Gospel but my neighbor didn't?

God chose you, me and everyone because in the Word it says:

God is not slack concerning his promise not willing that ANY MAN shall perish but that ALL should come to repentance........................ Is repenting not part of the plan of Salvation

Ummm, that scripture doesn't say that God chose everyone. It only says that He is WILLING that all should come to repentance. So why don't all come to repentance? We say, "Because God has given man free will to decide for himself." To me, this makes the will of man the overriding factor in the greatest universal matter. I believe the biblical answer to this is that if God wills (desires) the salvation of all men, but all men are not saved, then perhaps there is something God wills (or desires) even more than all men being saved. Check out the article I cited in an earlier post in this thread for a more thorough explanation.

Remember, many are called, but only few are chosen.

Repentance is still most certainly part of the plan of salvation. That's not in question here. The fact that God has elected (or predestined) me to eternal glory before the foundation of the world independent of my own actions does not negate the fact that I'm not actually saved (delivered, rescued) until I meet the demands of the Gospel. In other words, before it's all said and done with, I WILL believe and obey the Gospel. As many as have been foreordained to eternal life will believe.

[Nikkol]

If God has chosen everyone and has preordained everyone into their rightful positions, than why do you (those who subscribe to this doctrine) study the Bible, Preach the Gospel, attend church, do mission work, try to compel people to come to Christ?

If you are pre selected than what is the purpose of your works? Is it because you were chosen to work or that you have a heart to bring people to Jesus?

Here's scripture for that answer.

Romans 10:12-17
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report ? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

They still need to hear the gospel, which must come from a preached. (preacher being someone who proclaims the gospel; not just limited to someone with a title. Even for COrnelius, although an angel came to him, he still needed a 'preacher' to come to proclaim the gospel.

[krazeeboi]

Good answer, Nikkol. God has established a method for getting the Gospel out, and that is through believers.

Also, I'm not sure what is being implied by asking that if God has elected some to eternal life to the neglect of others, why do we read our Bible, go to church, preach the Gospel, etc. In salvation, God gives us a new heart and a new spirit, a heart and a spirit that is predisposed to pleasing Him. One thing is for certain, we don't do those things to SECURE or RETAIN our salvation (i.e., our justification), but they are the RESULT of our salvation.

If you are pre selected than what is the purpose of your works? Is it because you were chosen to work or that you have a heart to bring people to Jesus?

Both. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)