The 5 points of Calvinism

[auneeqsol]

Well after reading these posts I just want to say
WOW!!!!!!

Some of the views I can get with or even see the correlation between them and the scriptures or at least what the person is trying to say. But some of them I just dont see where they come from and how they could possibly be concluded as being the result of what the Word of God is saying.

For the record I am cool with everyone on here, when I post I dont try to team up with another or be against somewhat for the sake of buddies and all that. I am who I am. What I say on here is unbiased , not intending to hurt or attack anyone, or side up with anyone rather. That's not me.

So having said that now I can be understood as being unbiased in my comments.

(Catching my breath)

Now to answer KB's question:
Atonement- Heb. Kaphar- to cover, cancel, cleanse disannul, forgive, be merciful, pardon, to reconcile.
Somewhere along those lines.

Therefore the view of "limited atonement" is wayyy out in left field for me. God being as sovereign as he is would not close the door to his creation or give them a sentence before they can freely choose whether to love or hate him. Thats why we were created, to worship God as his creation. To be his glory (in a sense) in the earth. And the earth was created to be inhabited by what? His creation. The bible says we are fearfully and wonderfully made. Actually we were made in his image, now thats a piece of work to be cherished.

Thats where we get John 3:16. 'For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Believing in him here is a choice. That takes free will by man. Man has a free will. I mean we even see that in the OT in a saying we love to say as "Church Folks"
"Choose you this day whom you will serve , but as for me and my house we're gonna serve the Lord."
That sounds like a choice.
1 Peter 3:9- "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Well we know that God knows who will come and who won't bu in order for us to be without an excuse it has to be where there was an equal opportunity to come unto him, and that has to mean he gave us the ability and freedom to choose, or that wouldnt be just. And God is a just God.

And Im seeing where we are chosen like there is a list or something of who all God wanted to save, and who all would be saved and who he wanted to be lost. How can that be?
So what is the point of having faith, cuz hey you dont know you might be chosen to be a vessel of dishonor (as some use) and be hell bound despite all the praisin and believin and trusting you have done in your accepting Christ and the work he did to redeem you. I mean hey in that case you can be living this thing for 20 or 50 years but you were chose to be lost, then out of the blue you just go back on God because it was ordained that way and you are hell bound. Not so!!! I dont believe that. Then how do you know that you are saved? How do you know you wont turn around and be fallen from grace at the very last second? Where is the assurance then in Christ? He is a sure foundation isnt he? I mean that would be a scary thing, and there is no assurance in that, and then that would mean that we are "Trying" to make it to heaven instead of being sealed until the day of redemption by the Holy Ghost.

Hmmmmm.....things that make you go hmmm.
God has not given us the spirit of fear again to bondage. That can be a fearful thing to wonder are you chosen or not. I mean thats what it sounds like to me. Even though God knows he will let things run its course, but I dont believe that God "d**ns one to hell before the foundation of the world and then reserves some for heaven. This is not a game.

Free will choice has been since the beginning of time (as we know it) even in eternity past. even with Lucifer, the angels, do you think they were programmed or like robots? I dont think so, if free will wasnt in place Lucifer would not have chosen to try to overthrow God and be on the throne. Even the angels that went with him they had a choice. Even though we are his creation we have a choice, because he doesnt want us to be robots and being made to love him, thats not a true relationship. The bible says if we draw nigh to him he will draw nigh to us, thats a choice, and from that choice we will receive our reward, to be in fellowship with God and receive eternal life or turn a deaf ear to God, reject his love and be cast out into the lake of fire. If there was not a choice do you think God would allow the things to go on in the earth as they are, the killings, rapings, starvation, corrupt government, theivery, etc? Well God is sovereign, and what will be must be. He gives man a choice to live right and have abundant life or to be corrupt and consume themselves in sin. Thats why things are going to be renovated soon to put man and the earth back in the state that God intended from the beginning. So we see the only way to that point is making a choice to answer the call.
"The day you hear my voice harden not your heart" okay thats our chance. When one hears the gospel and therefore has a choice whether to activate the faith that is produced at that time to believe thats their chance , if they dont heed the call then they are choosing to be consumed by sin. You sign your own death certificate, you make your own sentence by the choice that you make. Choose life through Christ, or death through sin. The world is already condemned the bible says because of sin, thats why a sacrifice was made and God has us to choose, he doesnt save the whole world just like that (universalist view) you have to accept the work that was done and choose to be led by the creator who created you and not by sin that lies in your members from the result of being shapen in iniquity because the world was tainted by the fall.

God's gift to man ( his creation) is the measure of his love. Thats the only reason we have a chance. The death of Christ is the measure of his love, and the condescension of the Holy Spirit to transform men and work in their lives is the measure of the love of the Spirit to man.

Its about how much we are loved by God, not a cut- throat illustration of God's sovereignty to d**n a person to be eternally lost or show them compassion to eternal life. We're his creation. God cares about his creation. We're not a bunch of wooden Pinnochio's with strings to make us do and say what he wants. Thats why he gives us a heart of flesh after we have accepted his love and his ways for our lives.

Jeremiah 29:11-13 and we see that there is still a choice. The question is what choice will you make?
God is always right there waiting to welcome us unto himself.

Rom 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

God is faithful and just. He loves his creation just like that and then some.....

[Grace]

What is atonement?

Atonement is reconcilation through a blood sacrifice.

In the NT its the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ

[krazeeboi]

So if atonement is "forgiveness, pardoning, or the restoration of God's favor to repentant sinners," how can it be said to be "unlimited"?

I think a lot of us are thinking of "atonement" in terms of potentiality, or what it can POSSIBLY do and not in terms of actuality, what it REALLY and ACTUALLY does. Atonement isn't passive in nature, it's active.

Auneeqsol said:

1 Peter 3:9- "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Well we know that God knows who will come and who won't bu in order for us to be without an excuse it has to be where there was an equal opportunity to come unto him, and that has to mean he gave us the ability and freedom to choose, or that wouldnt be just. And God is a just God.

Justice is God consigning the whole of mankind to an eternity in hell. If you want justice, there it is. If 5 people owe a man $5000, and he chooses to totally forgive the debt of two of those people, was he just in not forgiving the other three? As the Lord has stated, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." And it is TOTALLY undeserved on our parts. So if you want, you can have justice, but I thank God for His MERCY.

[krazeeboi]

From auneeqsol:

So what is the point of having faith, cuz hey you dont know you might be chosen to be a vessel of dishonor (as some use) and be hell bound despite all the praisin and believin and trusting you have done in your accepting Christ and the work he did to redeem you. I mean hey in that case you can be living this thing for 20 or 50 years but you were chose to be lost, then out of the blue you just go back on God because it was ordained that way and you are hell bound. Not so!!! I dont believe that. Then how do you know that you are saved? How do you know you wont turn around and be fallen from grace at the very last second? Where is the assurance then in Christ? He is a sure foundation isnt he? I mean that would be a scary thing, and there is no assurance in that, and then that would mean that we are "Trying" to make it to heaven instead of being sealed until the day of redemption by the Holy Ghost.

Interestingly enough, that sounds more like the Ariminian position. Because your salvation is essentially in YOUR hands, how do you know that at the last second you'll backslide and wind up in hell? As an aside, the 5th point of TULIP is "preservation of the saints," or what some call "eternal security." While some Ariminians embrace this doctrine, many also reject it. And no it doesn't say that one can do all the sinning he/she wants and still be saved.

I would encourage you to really read over Romans 9 carefully and prayerfully.

If there was not a choice do you think God would allow the things to go on in the earth as they are, the killings, rapings, starvation, corrupt government, theivery, etc? Well God is sovereign, and what will be must be. He gives man a choice to live right and have abundant life or to be corrupt and consume themselves in sin.

Well then allow me to ask you this: why would God give man free will if he knew such terrible things would come about if He did? We make it seem as though God absolutely HAD to give man free will; this essentially robs God of His own free will (sovereignty). What is inherent in the will of man that God made it such a priority in the grand scheme of things, to the point that it could override His own (supposedly sovereign) will?

[auneeqsol]

krazeeboi said:

So if atonement is "forgiveness, pardoning, or the restoration of God's favor to repentant sinners," how can it be said to be "unlimited"?

I think a lot of us are thinking of "atonement" in terms of potentiality, or what it can POSSIBLY do and not in terms of actuality, what it REALLY and ACTUALLY does. Atonement isn't passive in nature, it's active.




Auneeqsol said:

1 Peter 3:9- "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Well we know that God knows who will come and who won't bu in order for us to be without an excuse it has to be where there was an equal opportunity to come unto him, and that has to mean he gave us the ability and freedom to choose, or that wouldnt be just. And God is a just God.

Justice is God consigning the whole of mankind to an eternity in hell. If you want justice, there it is. If 5 people owe a man $5000, and he chooses to totally forgive the debt of two of those people, was he just in not forgiving the other three? As the Lord has stated, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." And it is TOTALLY undeserved on our parts. So if you want, you can have justice, but I thank God for His MERCY.

Actually you are right about justice meaning we are hellbound. But.... that's where the sacrifice or "atonement" that Jesus made comes in at. See we are God's creation, and he cares about each and every one of us, John 3:16 says for God so loved the "WORLD" and in this passage it means just that, mankind rather. and it goes on to say that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

WHOSOEVER is the key word here. That means its open to all, but you have to believe or I like to say accept or receive it then you will not perish but have everlasting life. God does not sentence some to hell already before they could have a chance to make a choice rather to receive. In that case why would he have sent his son to die for the sins of mankind? In that case he would have died for a select few. In Rom 5:8 it says "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." And this is not just for a select few.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
That means mankind. Christ died for all of our sins, but there's a choice. We can choose life or death. God will not resist no one who calls upon his name.Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Now you might say, well only the ones that God draws to him shall call upon his name and be saved, Hmm let's see....The reason why sinners come not to Christ and salvation by him is, not because they cannot, but because they will not .
John 5:40 says And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
People still have a choice. You still must make a choice to come to Christ and receive the work that he did on the cross.
This would be like saying, "If medicine is available for everyone, then everyone must be healed." This is obviously false. The medicine, though available, will not do any good unless it is taken. "There is more than enough cool, refreshing water for every thirsty person in the village." Does this mean that every person in the village will have his thirst quenched? Only if every person drinks! We need to make a difference between redemption accomplished and redemption applied.

ALL have sinned (Romans 3:23) and ALL we like sheep have gone astray, but the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us ALL (Isaiah 53:6). The grace of God has appeared unto ALL men (Titus 2:11). A Saviour has been provided for ALL people (Luke 2:10-11). Salvation has been made possible for ALL (John 3:16-17) and Jesus Christ is the Saviour of ALL men (1 Timothy 4:10). God desires ALL to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4) and the Saviour died for ALL (1 Timothy 2:6; 1 John 2:2). Thus the gospel message is for ALL (Mark 16:15) and God’s gracious invitation is extended to ALL (Rom. 10:13; Rev. 22:17). ALL men everywhere are commanded to repent (Acts 17:30). ALL men from ALL nations are commanded to believe the gospel (Rom. 1:5; 16:26). Christians are commanded to go to ALL men and to beseech them to be reconciled to God (2 Cor. 5:19-20). Yes, the ALL includes all men. It's all a matter of will you personally receive or personally reject ALL that the living God has done for you?

"But as many as received Him [Christ], to them gave He power to become the sons [children] of God, even to them that believe on His Name." (John 1:12).

That's bible we can interpret it the way we want to, or look at it the way we want, but for what it says God sent his son for the whole world, that includes everyone, no one is left out, its for whoever chooses, if they dont choose then they are lost. Because the world is already condemned, that's why a saviour was sent.
God is no respector of persons. He doesnt discriminate, He is a God of love and he will make a way of escape from this present evil world. We that have believed are not the "special ones" that have been called to have eternal life, but God gives everyone a chance to have eternal life, thats the whole purpose of Christ coming to the world and dying. God was reconciling MAN not a few, back unto himself. That's mankind..... his creation.

[And Such Were Some Of You]

In line with the other topic that is in the "Link" section of the board - I am bumping this topic. However, I am not saying that I hold to the "5 Points of Calvanism".

[And Such Were Some Of You]

BUMP

[Beulah5]

I wish i could jump into this discussion but i just do not have the strength *sigh*sigh Good exchange though from all parties.

Let us remember though that u are cannot really be giving someone free will unless u give them a viable alternative as well. I set before u death and life comes into mind....