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Post by LANL ns on Nov 13, 2005 20:01:35 GMT -5
Also, I'm not sure what is being implied by asking that if God has elected some to eternal life to the neglect of others, why do we read our Bible, go to church, preach the Gospel, etc. KB, I asked the questions why would a person do the things that we do to please God when our lives are pre planned. If everything is already worked out and you know that you are chosen by God, then why do anything because you are chosen...................... First of all I am still trying to figure all of this Calvinism out, this is really my first time researching the doctrine...... But since I am here, let me ask this question: If God created Adam and Eve (perfect) then who decided to Sin? Did God make Eve sin? Didn't God give Adam and Eve the choice to eat from every tree of the Garden besides one tree? So who decided for them to eat from the tree? Also, what about the Flood during Noah's time, was not free will to do right or wrong expressed in those days? Or did the plan of God override man's only after Christ? Just aking..................................... |
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Post by krazeeboi on Nov 15, 2005 0:27:28 GMT -5
Those are really good questions, questions that certainly deserve answers.
Upon salvation, God places in us a desire to please Him, a desire that was not present before. Salvation isn't about "Well, I'm on my way to heaven, so I'm set; I can chill from here on out." Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism endorses this mindset.
"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God." (Ezek. 11:19-20).
"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them" (Ezek. 36:25--27)
"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jer. 31:33).
As Ephesians 2:10 states, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Also, when considering Adam's choice in the Garden, remember that Jesus was planned to come on the scene in eternity past before Adam and Eve were even thought of. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world--He is the first thing God foreordained before He foreordained or planned anything else. That is important to keep in mind.
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Post by jasmine nsi on Nov 15, 2005 12:01:26 GMT -5
So in other words what you are saying is..Man had to fall, in order for Jesus to Redeem.
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Post by lanl ns on Nov 15, 2005 13:04:37 GMT -5
So in other words what you are saying is..Man had to fall, in order for Jesus to Redeem. Not disputing your quote, but in reference to the topic: If that was the case than man was Never created in the image and likeness of God? Genesis 1:26 - 27 (NIV) 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
I say that because it is my understanding that man was created perfect (or at least very good  ) from the beginning?
So God created sin in order to restore man, when man was in essence created Very Good from the start............ |
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Grace
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Post by Grace on Nov 15, 2005 13:25:47 GMT -5
Man was created in the likeness of God, but when Adam and Eve sinned, they chose free will which now we have the introduction of the sinful nature, which when they were created they didn't have.
The problem was free will free will allowed for the sin. So as a result we are seperated from God. Jesus is the only way to be put in right standing with God.
The very interesting thing is God intiated the reconcilation not man.
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Post by lanl ns on Nov 15, 2005 14:11:39 GMT -5
Man was created in the likeness of God, but when Adam and Eve sinned, they chose free will which now we have the introduction of the sinful nature, which when they were created they didn't have. The problem was free will free will allowed for the sin. So as a result we are seperated from God. Jesus is the only way to be put in right standing with God. The very interesting thing is God intiated the reconciliation not man.
Now in reference to free will if that is the case, Who gave Adam and Eve free will, since it can not operate? |
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Post by lanl ns on Nov 15, 2005 14:42:04 GMT -5
I have another question:
If anyone cares to answer it:
If Calvinism is true;and God created the fall of man in order for the promise of Jesus to be fulfilled than how can you explain the following scripture:
Genesis 6
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Wouldn't God be playing games, if that was the case................
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Post by Endure nsi on Nov 16, 2005 13:23:20 GMT -5
Hi Saints  Thanks Jas for the definitions at least now I know I'm not a universalist and probably a portion of the other two...that's neither here or there. I believe what God has impressed upon my heart whether it be wrong or right to others.Seriously, I understanding that we all have been taught differently, we all have been brought up on different doctrines and because I've never been one to really go at it with anyone where the word is concerned and have learned to go to God when I'm confused maybe that's what's throwing me off here. Many threads go into deep revelation or deep thought and discussion but, yet it seems as though everyone is trying to be right in what they have been taught or what they believe and trying to discredit everyone else whose belief is different-now, I said that's what I see, doesn't mean that's what's going on. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining nor trying to pass judgement...it's just my thought and I could very well be wrong so, no punds intended. I still believe that the word of God is infalliable, if you are confused or not clear, then bc God's word is infalliable, why not go to him for the answer instead of all the ongoing back and forth, of the why nots and if sos, etc? Okay, so we all have different doctrines, we all come from different beliefs yet, doesn't God give different interpertations/revelations according to our level-do you all agree with that? If so, then why so much energy being put into trying to get your point across? If you believe one way and your sister/brother believe differently then so be it. So you've discussed it-you don't agree...let it go, in the end somebody is going to be right and somebody is going to be wrong but what do you want out of it? A pat on the back, a gold star, a special seat in the heavenlies? Cmon ya'll do you see what I'm trying to say...this reminds me of the scripture referencing the wheat/tare. We will never come into the full knowledge of all things concerning God but that, that he gives by revelation, prayer, meditation and study-do you all agree that we should be simple with our approach when it comes to the word? Jesus was, so why should we be any different, he was our prime example. That's really all I'm trying to say. Anyways, I just replied bc a reply was sent to me and it would be rude to not reply back when you've asked a question. God bless each of you on today. Continue to be sweet, loving and kind in your spirit as a saint should always be. Love you all |
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Post by jasmine nsi on Nov 16, 2005 20:11:31 GMT -5
Well I hope that my posts do not imply such a thing endure. My church doesn't teach calvinism, arminianism, or universalism. And its actually something that we don't pay much attention to.
We teach JesusisaSaviorism..no favortism (lol). However I can understand both sides of the "arguements".
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Post by keita nsi on Nov 16, 2005 21:39:56 GMT -5
I just wanted to say that I've really enjoyed following this thread because it caused me to dig deeper regarding some perspectives that I am familiar with but had never really given much thought or devoted much study to. I do think it's important to know not only who we have believed, but also what and why we do. ...-do you all agree that we should be simple with our approach when it comes to the word? Jesus was, so why should we be any different, he was our prime example... I think that Jesus' example demonstrates that the approach to scripture and its teaching depends a lot on who the listener/learner is. For example, there is a difference in and among the ways and depths of His communication with the masses, His disciples, or those closest to Him. It seems that the same would, and perhaps should, be true in His Body as well. My church doesn't teach calvinism, arminianism, or universalism. And its actually something that we don't pay much attention to. A lot of churches don't necessarily identify or focus on those perspectives but I think that an examination of a denomination/congregation's doctrines and teachings will usually reveal their existence, at least to some extent. LOL@Jas! I'll be borrowing that along with ybrown's gem, "If you must label me, label me a Biblist." Me too. And from a "Keitaist" perspective, I see them as different parts of a whole which are not necessarily, easily, scripturally or wisely separated. |
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Post by lanl ns on Nov 17, 2005 10:12:04 GMT -5
I just wanted to say that I've really enjoyed following this thread because it caused me to dig deeper regarding some perspectives that I am familiar with but had never really given much thought or devoted much study to. I do think it's important to know not only who we have believed, but also what and why we do. Amen Keita, I hope my posts didn't come across trying to persuade or convince anyone to change their views: As I have enjoyed this thread as well. I simply just wanted to know what this topic was about and why people believe they way they believe. Peace |
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Post by Nikkol on Nov 17, 2005 10:12:17 GMT -5
That's true.....
And like we should know, at the end of the day or even our life, whether we believe in Calvinism, aminiasm, etc won't change where we spend eternity. Only not living an unholy life will do that.
But it's always good to see what other people's views are. And even when looking at the "rebuttals", that will be in any "argument", but it helps to strengthen one's view. Even in Christianity, hearing some of the comments that were made by people that didn't believe made me study more and put together an "argument" with less holes....
Keep it up... lets continue to be Bereans
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Post by Endure nsi on Nov 17, 2005 12:05:38 GMT -5
Peace my Sisters... Truly, I do concur with all the posts after my questions, I guess sometimes so many things come out of the woodwork and it makes you wonder why everyone is jumping on the bandwagon to "new" things when the bible is our "true" roadmap in life. Please forgive me if I've offended anyone regarding your beliefs or doctrines-not my intentions and yes, it has been an interesting read and I as well do take and receive information for my noggan for future reference from most of the threads so all is not null and void Thanks for being a listening ear my sistahs it's good to know that we can agree to disagree and still have love in the midst. I love it Jas truly feeling you here my sister! |
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Grace
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Post by Grace on Nov 17, 2005 16:09:22 GMT -5
The Calvinist view also states that atonement is limited, which we know is not in actuality true.
The arminian view says atonement is unlimited which in actuality is what the Bible says.
Free will who said we didn't have free will. Its obvious that there is free will, Eve chose just as Adam to eat from the tree no one forced them too. They made a decision. So although it may not be stated it is seen in the scripture. Matter of fact they had free will in the truest sense of the concept, because they knew not of sin and were not influenced like people today with a sinful nature.
Although many churches don't teach arminianism or calvinism directly, many of our churches fall into those genre's. Now the Weslyian church is under the Arminian view point. In all actuality most evangelicals are considered to be calvinist. Although they are not referenced in those terms, however their beliefs and thought processes tend to fall into one of the categories.
Both views are closely related more than one would think. We have been having this discussion in my seminary class for the past 3 weeks.
There is actually a guy in my class who is of the arminian belief system. It makes for interesting discussion to say the least.
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Post by krazeeboi on Nov 18, 2005 21:58:52 GMT -5
What is atonement?
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) from the beginning? 
