Can salvation be lost?Are we trying to make it in?

[Jasmine]

anointedteacher said:

jasmine said:

I think you are still missing it ATT.

God doesn't OWE us anything. God is not OBLIGATED to do anything for us. I believe this is what KB is saying (by the way, is very capable to speak for himself).

What you are saying is also true. Jesus died for all men sins, and anyone that calls upon his name shall be saved. The invitation is extended, however many don't show up for the extravaganza.

"For many are called, but few are chosen".

That says something!

NO I"M NOT MISSING IT! Where in my post I said God owe us something or is obligated to do anything for us. You need to go back and re-read the post..... Because you are missing it.

The point i am making is that God gave and still giving an open invitation to ALL, not some that is call chosen. Those who are chosen are those who accepted the invitation to receive salvation. The scriptures shows that it is His Will that ALL be saved.

AT

hey hey hey...the tone is unpleasant. I haven't always been saved ya know. But I do claim deliverance. amen.

[krazeeboi]

g3 said:

Krazee, I don't wear Calvin Kline.

I'm glad you don't; that label is sooooo 90's. ;D

But I'm curious. This wisdom you speak of, is it of Divine orgin or is it of man. Is this a form of "logical reasoning"?

Compare what I have said against the Word of God, and my statements will vindicate themselves.

And there is no dichotomy between divine wisdom and logical reasoning. We are commanded to love the Lord with all of our MINDS, which includes our mental faculties of reasoning and logic (i.e., work). But of course we'd rather take the easy route of letting God whisper everything in our ear then come up with all kinds of weird, contradictory, God-dishonoring doctrines claiming it's what "da Lawd said." But I digress...

Substantiate the "limited number" theory. If its Divine substantiate your conviction, in contexts, with biblical scirptures. If its man's....well, you know.

I simply mentioned the doctrine; this doesn't mean I have subscribed to it (although I indeed may have ).

How is the Father Just? Is He just because of His works? Or is He Just because of His nature? How do you define Justice in view of the Godhead?

Justice is all men going straight to hell, without passing GO or collecting $200. The Bible is crystal clear that all have sinned and that all deserve eternal death.

How can the Godhead be partial or selective to whom is to be save or lost in light of the Word that says " He would all men to be saved and to repent. Is there a contradiction in His will for all men to be saved and repent and His partiality to whom is lost and who is not?

This might very well be the case. In light of the statement that God wills the repentance of all men and the fact that all men do not repent, this tells us much more than initially meets the eye. Salvation is the greatest universal matter, and if God does wills this yet it does not happen, then we are faced with two choices:

1) Something is thwarting God's will
2) God wills something even greater than the salvation of all men

Hmmmm....

Is His partiality greater than His will? Isn't His will and Word in harmony? And isn't His Word that gives value to His name? Isn't He the Father of Rightiousness? Doesn't partiality display a respect of person? Didn't the Word say that He is without respect of person. And I say that He is a Respector of Princple. And in contrary to the practical Law without remorse and repentance from man, he will be lost. This was predetermine by the Godhead from the foundation of the world.

Yes the Bible says that God is no respecter of persons, but again, context is crucially important here (as it always is).

As mentioned before, the subtle spirit of Calvinism has paved a road that leads to the doctrine of inclusion. Whether it's just one person chosen. This person will represent that "I am secured and I can't be lost". That leaven will contaminate the whole. Their both from the same spirit.

I think you're equating assurance of salvation in the Calvinist view with licentiousness, which Calvinism in no way, shape, or form endorses. Just as the opposite view (various forms of Arminianism) can spawn certain legalisms (as is often the case), one doesn't necessarily follow the other.

[auneeqsol]

Now KB and Nikkol and maybe a cpl of others, I understand the concept of what you are saying, but I disagree simply because it is limited.

God is not limited when it comes to salvation for those that are lost, (which we all were). We cant forget that he already had a plan worked out from the beginning as we know it. And it still sounds like you all are saying that salvation is so precious, that God would not waste it on those he already knows wont receive it, so therefore they are the called but not the chosen.

So its like you are saying some are Predestined to be saved and some are not. Meaning that God already has their names written in the book and some he doesnt.

And futhermore it seems like you are saying that his blood covers only those who are predestined to be saved, and that it wasnt simply shed to just run out and overflow to all mankind.

God gives everyone a chance. Now he already knows who will receive and who wont, I will agree to that. But its not like he draws some and not all.

So if its like that, then how do you know if YOU are gonna really make it or not? Its like saying ppl were chosen at random to be saved ultimately. That's sounds scary. So that means we need to live like we are TRYING to be SAVED and TRYING to make it in, when in fact if you are truly converted, no one can pluck you out of his hands, and you are sealed until the day of redemption (until our change comes on that day we translate from this life to the next)

I believe he died on the cross for all, so that all MAY be saved "if they accept " the work that was done on the cross for their sins, and begin to Believe on the Lord Jesus. If that is where thier faith takes them , then what does it say? Faith without works is dead. They will begin to showforth works if they were really sincere about their decision.

See the world is already condemned and covered in darkness, its already judged, but whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. He's making that clear that I will make sure you are saved from the pending doom, if you let me lead like I always planned.

To say what you said concerning God being a just God and doesnt owe anybody anything is sort of "out there"
I mean the grace of God is like a blanket over mankind, but only will he reap the benefits of it, if he accepts it and believe in it.

Its like this, okay yes we are sinners naturally, and like you said, really justice would be to be eternally seperated from God because of our sin. BUT .....he has OFFERED a remedy, he has OFFERED a solution to that. And you are saying God has an answer to the sin sickness and he is only choosing certain ones to be cured and not all ?? That sounds like something experimental. And God is sure of himself and what he has created, which he said the creation of mankind was VERY GOOD not just good.

We are ALL his CREATION and he loves us so, so why would he only CHOOSE to save some and Doom others to an eternal death. Mankind didnt ask to be here, he made us....we dont have control over anything, from generations on down, we didnt know we were being born in sin, totally seperated from God's will. But because of God's unconditional love he wouldnt do that, thats why a solution was set in place already, because he knew we would fail.

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear....
God dont play games with us, he gives everyone a chance. He loves us that much.

[ybrown]

g3 said:

Krazee, I don't wear Calvin Kline.

But I'm curious. This wisdom you speak of, is it of Divine orgin or is it of man. Is this a form of "logical reasoning"? Substantiate the "limited number" theory. If its Divine substantiate your conviction, in contexts, with biblical scirptures. If its man's....well, you know.

How is the Father Just? Is He just because of His works? Or is He Just because of His nature? How do you define Justice in view of the Godhead? How can the Godhead be partial or selective to whom is to be save or lost in light of the Word that says " He would all men to be saved and to repent. Is there a contradiction in His will for all men to be saved and repent and His partiality to whom is lost and who is not? Is His partiality greater than His will? Isn't His will and Word in harmony? And isn't His Word that gives value to His name? Isn't He the Father of Rightiousness? Doesn't partiality display a respect of person? Didn't the Word say that He is without respect of person. And I say that He is a Respector of Princple. And in contrary to the practical Law without remorse and repentance from man, he will be lost. This was predetermine by the Godhead from the foundation of the world.

As mentioned before, the subtle spirit of Calvinism has paved a road that leads to the doctrine of inclusion. Whether it's just one person chosen. This person will represent that "I am secured and I can't be lost". That leaven will contaminate the whole. Their both from the same spirit.

Teach, brother. You've posed excellent questions that the limited atonement view just can't answer without disregarding half of scripture and the true nature of God which is woven throughout His word.

Salvation is for all, but not all will get it.

[kanyon]

I thank you all for the respectfull way that this very important subject is being handled. Please continue.

I have some musings as I watch this thread..

Please do not assume that because a discussion is going one way or another that it is time to move on. If we only hang out with those who believe 100% as we do then we have no way to test out points of view.

? How can one be 'chosen' if they have to 'accept first' to be placed in that category?

The bible states that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto them neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned.
Unless the Spirit of God calls, man does not even have the ability to be convicted of their sin or to repent. To suggest otherwise means that man can have a part in his salvation. He cannot. It is all of God. Man seems to have this need to help God save him..he cannot. It is God who justifies.

We need to have a look at the things we have always believed. Did we learn from the teachings in our church, monthly magazines from our fellowship or approved visiting ministers without question? That is what we call conditioned and not learned (from our own search of the scriptures) responses.

I have to confess that I am one of those who was taught and I learned my denominations view on every point of our doctrinal statement.
In the last few years as I have looked again at some of these issues, I am amazed at how small, and near human my God was if I believed without question everything I was taught. My faith was , yes believe in the Lord Jesus Christ but ya godda, ya quudda, ya shuda if you want to make heaven...all my works, and you know what God thinks about that. I walked in bondage on a floor of banna peels.

Don't go jumping ship on me..I'm just sharing my thoughts as I watch this thread.

Keep it going and keep loving one another, its part of our new nature, we can't help it.

[auneeqsol]

Oh Kanyon i like a good meaty discussion, it goes for some good eatin...lol

But what view are you exactly taking, the limited atonement view?

Well if we didnt accept that mean salvation is like a blanket on everyone, and that everyone is automatically saved just because Christ died and set a new plan in order. But we know that's not so.

So im trying to understand how you were explaining your thoughts

[krazeeboi]

Kanyon, I feel you my brother. I also believe that the things we REALLY believe and take to heart and defend most vigorously are those things that we have come to question and research and allow the Spirit of God to guide us about. I have to admit, this doctrine is probably the hardest I've had to swallow. But at the same time it taught me something about God, something that we don't really get in our "touchy, feely" emotional "make me feel good about everything" culture we live in, and this POV has really affected everything around us, including our churches. I've really discovered that God reserves the right to be God, and nothing can or ever will undermine His sovereignty. There is indeed a method to His madness.

[krazeeboi]

What is atonement? Does it really accomplish anything?

[auneeqsol]

hmmm *yawn* i'll get back to this later on.....

But im up with ya though...lol

[Jasmine]

krazeeboi said:

What is atonement? Does it really accomplish anything?

Atonement is reconciliation. The redemptive work of Jesus death and life Bridged the gap between God and man. It is because of Atonement that we are able to have a relationship with God.

So Yes, it does accomplish something. Without it, there would be no reconciliation for sins. There would be no bridge between God and man.

[G3]

Hey Krazee, you don't wanna go there. That's a whole new thread of 4 to 5 pages. We both know you know what it means and what it accomplished. So for the sake of curiosity, come anew (old dice slang).

[krazeeboi]

Actually, there was a thread about atonement some time ago, but it didn't receive much attention. You care to bring up some meat for discussion over there?

I know that I know what it means, but that doesn't mean that I know that everyone else knows what it means--hence the reason I asked the question. Get it, got it, good.

By the way, what do you think of my two options in the earlier post? Care to elaborate?

[G3]

If you're refering to your response to my response, I did give consideration to do so. But I was led not to. The one's who needed the meat got their fill and that was my objective. So to further what has already been said would have led to excess of opinions.

All that I believe in and standfast with I take great confidence from whom I recieve all my knowledge and information from. All that I preach and teach I take great comfort that the giver of such wisdom is from the divine source. I lay down my salvation and consider myself a curse if that what I preach or teach is horizontal. That what I recieve is vertical. I take no confidence in earthly liteture or researce of man's opinion that leads to endless debates and fruitless results. But by meditation in His Word and total trust in the Spirit of Truth whom will take Truth and reveal Truth because His Word is Truth one can't help but walk in Truth.

Maybe some other day down the road, if the Lord is willing we'll enjoy some FRESH BREAD

[krazeeboi]

^Certainly; we will carry on in your absence.

So where have we left off? Anybody wanna go down "atonement road"?

[auneeqsol]

its your call...........


To be honest i just cant get with the "limited atonement" thing.

But i'll respond tho