Can salvation be lost?Are we trying to make it in?

[krazeeboi]

OK, how about we move the atonement discussion here. And we've kinda gotten off topic with limited atonement.

But let's go back to the scenario in the very first post.

A husband and wife have a heated argument at home where the wife cursed at her husband in a moment of rage. So the wife storms out of the house and goes for a ride to cool off, without apologizing or making amends
And she gets into a car accident that claims her life, my pastor taught us that hell will be her home, whether she was saved for 2 yrs or 20 yrs. Because of the simple fact she didnt have a chance to repent or confess rather for cursing.

So what's the deal here? Does this one incident negate the wife's salvation? She has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, has met the demands of the Gospel, loves the Lord with all her heart, and is a faithful Christian and loving wife and mother. Where will she end up due to this one incident, and why?

[G3]

THE PRINCIPLES OF WORKS AND FAITH

Show me your faith and I'll show you my faith because of my workS

In our fallen nature we practice what we are. In Christ we trust and believe in and on our Savior. From the heart we practice a Christ-like life style. We displayed this new life by our faith works that is based on Love. The regeneration took place in the inner man that worked it's way outward.

But in our flesh dwells no good thing. But a daily routine and habitual practice of a Christ-like life style and a renewing of the mind to a new way of thinking, we put away the deedS of the flesh and put on the New Man.

Yet being a new creation in Christ, we are yet in war with the flesh and the mind. We are constant battle while living in a satanic system that is geared toward destruction of any and everything that is Christ-like. There is war raging between the inner man and the flesh to gain the pre-eminence over the mind. Which one is superior, the mind will make discision that caters to it. If we are born of incorruptable Seed and are hearers and doers (PRACTICE) of the Word, our works through faith displays that we are saved. And if by chance alone the way to that place of perfection we stumble and fall, we do have an Advocate. And if we walk (practice) in that Truth as He is Truth, we have fellowship, not just with one another but also with Him. And in this practice there is a continual cleansing through the blood of Yeshua.

Saying all that to say this. What make a person what they are? is it a deed? Or is it the practice. Do we display our salvation by an act? or is it a practice? Is the fall from grace from an act? Or is it a practice? Restoration (to fellowship) takes an act (confessing the sin), but it's displayed by the practice. We must not get fellowship mixed up with RELATIONSHIP. A husband and wife is a relationship. Communication is the fellowship. If their communication is broken, the relation as husband and wife has not change.

Know this. Far beyond any human concept and idea, the Father is highly aware what we are up against in this demonic system or world we live in. He know the brutal mental onslaugth that the people of God faces daily. Thank God for His Word and His Sprirt! Thank God For the Lamb! The Lamb that satisfied Justice. The Father, because of His Love and care has equipped every believer for battle in Word, power and might. The enemy know this and fear this greatly. So in order to get a foothold, he attacks the mind with high thoughts of failure and insecurities so that we may say or do something in the flesh that leads to condemnation. And condemnation generates inadequacy and unworthiness. This is because ignorance and assenting to the Word.

I sense in my spirit that someone is reading this response and you feel there is no one listening to you or understand your situation. The Father does. This the reason for this post. The Father according to His Word and His Holy Spirit has anointed and ordained you be to victorious in your passing situation. There's nothing uncommon that has challenged you. We all have our moments. Hey, I'm in my own moment. But I count it all joy so that His power and grace be upon me. The Father is faithful and already has prepared your coming out.

Email me or someone who you take comfort with.

[auneeqsol]

Okay now, its sort of opening up the way I was looking for it to.

I see what you are saying G3 about the deed and practice, and I can say that i agree. See we are not trying to make it in, but the church has painted that pic like each day you are in danger of going to hell if you mess up, but the thing is we are yet flesh. Its not to say that you cannot keep his word through obedience, but the truth of the matter is there are so many temptations , thats why the word says "if" you sin, there is an advocate. Because it is likely that we will.

But i believe the wife would have went to heaven but she would suffer loss on reward day 1 Cor 3:10-15
because our foolish "deeds" can cause us to lose out on some things. We are still held accountable for every idle word we speak.

But overall God had to even remind himself that we were yet flesh so that he would not totally consume us once again as he did in the flood. But as I continue to walk after God and strive even the more, God is yet pleased with me, because my heart is pure towards a thing.

[anointedteacher]

G3,

I love your style of writing....

I have a question, How about a person that went from deeds to practice of sins....

In example concerning the wife, I don't she went to hell.... I don't believe a person can just walk out of salvation overnight... I believe it is progressive and it begin in the mind where sin is conceived.

When I first got saved there were a young man that run tract on the college campus, he used to encourage me in my newly walk in Christ. He used to knock on my door 5am to pray and run in the snow in NJ in the month of January.... He ministered to me and a former roommate. I used to enjoy reading a few scriptures, praying and running 5am. The following semester... I lost contact with him for awhile, when I ran into him, I was so happy to see him. I notice a change in him...his spirit was cold. I asked him why he haven't been in Church? He said "I don't believe that anymore... I don't believe in God! I was shock , as a babe I did not understand, the love of Christ disappeared for this guy . I knew for sure he was saved, than he had nothing to do with God. I was really hurt .

I have seen great men of God that walk in the anointing and power of the Holy Spirit. Than over the years, they became false prophets or teachers.... It really bother me, because I have loved these men and to see them turning away from Jesus and walk toward destruction is sad . I prayed to God to bring them back. I know God can, but wont violates their wells .

I know the mind is the battle ground, why do some fall away, like a dog who return to his own vomit.

God Bless

AT

[krazeeboi]

G3 and auneeqsoul, I am in full agreement.

AT, it really is sad when things like that occur. However, I am of the belief that if they TRULY belong to Christ, before it's all said and done with, like the prodigal son, they have to come back home.

[anointedteacher]

KB.... It been over 25 years since I saw that young man, he old now LOL.... Please start counting your fingers to fugure how old I am....

Those falling men are till doing their thing, one into ESP and selling prophecies and the other you know about...

Why do we wait till someone fall away to pray?

AT

[G3]

Using the prodical son as an analogy I must keep in mind that the teacher of this parable is Christ Himself. I must keep in mind the difference between relationship and fellowship. Family relationship never changes. But I can have a relationship as a son and never restore my communion with my father. We will still be father and son, but with broken relationship. In order to have full fellowship there must be a heart to heart restoration. (Explaination of heart to heart will come later)

What if that prodical son never came to his senses and remained in his prideful rebellion and died. Died destitude as a son, without enjoying the benefits of His father's house. In contexts of this parable, this is something to ponder. In the parables of restoring that what was lost, this particular one deals with relationship and fellowship.

As Krazee (I crack up everytime I say that. LOL KRAZEE!!) respond, if you're truly His and tasted that heavenly gift, you'll come back. You'll RETURN. Run if you can. How did Martha Reeves put it. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide! Take the flight of an eagle to some remote place, He is there. To the depths of the sea, you'll be found. Deep call unto deep. His deep Love arrest you and hold you captive in His mercy and Love. What cha gonna do when He rain down such Love on you. Nothing but RETURN!!

Let us forever remember what was said of Esau and his tears of remorse yet not finding a place of restoration. This and many other scriptural warnings are examples to the believer are written to instruct us. And to be careful of boastful thinking of one present stand. 1Cor.10 is good in humbling and sobering the soul.

[livinganewlife]

auneeqsol said:

But i believe the wife would have went to heaven but she would suffer loss on reward day 1 Cor 3:10-15
because our foolish "deeds" can cause us to lose out on some things.

Is making it to Heaven not enough?

[Jasmine]

Unfortunately,

I believe this is one of those..You really won't know scenario's until we ourselves get there.

I would like to believe that as she was driving away in the car upset and angry with her husband (as I have done several times), That she would have allowed the Spirit of God to calm and correct her. I would like to believe that should could have asked the Lord to forgive her and planned on making it right with her husband.

God already knows that some things we say in the heat of the moment, we don't really mean it. (There are some people who do) but He knows and that and i would like to believe that just as I have had conversations with my father after having an argument with my husband, and being convicted for my actions, the same could have happened in the scenario.

Si

[G3]

Thats why its urged by the Spirit to be careful on how we retire at night. Do not take anger as a bed pillow. Do not allow roots of bitterness take root in our hearts defiling and troubling our souls.

I myself have driven some late nights angry at the apple of my eye. Being a man, whether right or wrong it's my duty as a man, husband, father, prophet and priest of my home to reconcile and restore.

[krazeeboi]

AT, great points. If we prayed for one another as we should, we could actually step in and prevent a lot of these "what if" scenarios. Prayers are powerful!

G3, you have said it better than I could have. Good point bringing up Esau as well.

Livinganewlife, making it to heaven (or shall we say, eternal life in the new heaven and the new earth) is certainly a blessing in and of itself, but the Bible does teach us about eternal rewards. Here is a good article concerning eternal rewards.

[auneeqsol]

Excellent Article KB I am one who teaches about rewards. Believe it or not some churches dont even teach this. When I was coming up (in holiness denom)we werent taught about the rewards we were just focusing on "making" it to heaven. Not going back. Not going to hell. But it was never a thing to where you are challenged in this way. To strive for the mastery as Paul said. That scripture along with pressing towards the mark, was always being related to salvation as far as we learned. That's why I started this thread. It was always taught to us that at any given time, if you sin in a moment of weakness and dont have a chance to repent (I believe for the believer confession is preferred)
then all your work that you have done to build upon the foundation of your salvation was lost. And hell will be your home.

But then there is the issue of rewards.
Note this quote from the article:

"Obviously Paul was not "running" to obtain his justification or his eternal salvation! Those things were already his by grace alone. It follows then that Paul is talking about the "reward"—the prize—that could be won by a person who ran a winning race."

So our salvation is secure. Right? If you are truly converted.

Okay I got another question.

Now where does "Grace" come in at when it comes to confession of your sins to be cleansed?

There maybe someone who doesnt say their prayers every night, confessing what they have done that day that was considered wrong or sin. But yet they have a relationship with God and they talk to God all through the day, and their heart is with the Lord.

But they go to bed, not confessing from the sins that they might have committed without knowledge or even with, if they pass on in their sleep , is their salvation null and void? In the eyesight of God that is (or according to the word?)

How far does Grace go? or what are the limits that Grace has? What does Grace cover? How is grace sufficient for us when we are weak and feeble in our own finite thinking? How does grace make it possible for his strength to be made perfect in our weaknesses? What does that really mean?

There are plenty of questions for ya.....dig in and eat a lil.... Come on let's reason together....

[livinganewlife]

Alright yall ;D:

good article, however the only concern I have is that the reward "program" is somewhat flawed; because IMO how can we peacefully walk around in eternal life you got a Phat Mansion and a Bling Bling Crown because 20,200 souls were saved through your life; Sister Lou got a nice crib and a Bling Crown because 15,000 souls were saved through her life and I get a studio and a crown with a Topaz because only one person got saved through my life.............

What determines the rewards?

[auneeqsol]

LOL- i feel ya, but IMO you wont even be able to think about what someone else has, I believe our mindset will be so different.

Just like you wont be wondering, did so and so make it in, i dont see them.....remember the bible says that there will be no more sorrow.

So as well as it being no more sorrow, i believe there will be no jealousy , envy, none of that to harass us.

But as far as what determines your rewards.......

Well Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;


1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.


1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.


1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire

Check out this explanation:

“While our faith determines our eternal destination, our behavior determines our eternal rewards”{2}. The Bible clearly teaches that we are saved by God’s grace, through personal faith in Christ, apart from any works whatever (Eph. 2:8-9). But it also teaches, with equal clarity, that we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that we may be recompensed for what we have done in the body, whether good or bad (2
Cor. 5:10). This judgment (which is only for believers) is not to determine whether or not we are saved. Its purpose is to evaluate our works and determine whether we shall receive, or lose, eternal rewards (1 Cor. 3:10-15)

“Our works are what we have done with our resources—time, energy, talents, money, possessions.”{3} The
apostle Paul describes our works as a building project. At the judgment seat of Christ the quality of our work will be tested with fire. If we have used quality building materials (gold, silver, precious stones), then our work will endure and we will be rewarded by the Lord. If we have used poor building materials (in this case, wood, hay, or straw), then our work will be consumed and we will suffer the loss of rewards (1 Cor. 3:10-15).

I hope that helps a little. So really you wont be fine just being a christian coming to church every Sunday being a bench warmer, doing nothing in the kingdom.

Now I do feel like in heaven we can be ashamed for our own actions, and wish we would have done better. I cant explain that but thats my Own Opinion.

[krazeeboi]

Auneeqsoul, good breakdown about the basis for eternal rewards. And I agree, growing up in the holiness church, everything you did was to make sure you made it in and didn't miss hell. There was practically NO concept of eternal rewards (which the Bible often symbolizes through the use of regal imagery, i.e. crowns).

As for your questions (which were touched on by G3), I believe the apostle John has our answer:

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One." (1 John 1:7-10; 2:1)

Thank God for options!

This lets us know that God values our salvation so much that He won't allow it become jeopardized by some willy nilly sin or mistake we commit; walking in the light (perfecting holiness), confessing our sin, and the intercessory ministry of Christ are the methods[/i] that God has provided for the cleansing of sin in the day-to-day life of the believer. I believe that this is the experiential cleansing from sin, as distinguished from the positional (there may be a better word here) cleansing from sin that was accomplished at Calvary (for past, present, AND future sins).